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What Is the Word for you in Portuguese?
By Danilo Nogueira
(Professional translators, editors, consultants, trainers)
Brazil
danilo.tradutor@uol.com.br
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This brief note is dedicated to all those
who have spent a long time learning Spanish and
want to add Portuguese as an easy "second"
more or less in the same manner a German symphony
orchestra would throw in a Strauss waltz as a
"bonbon" to finish off an otherwise
all-Bruckner night with a light touch.
A couple of years ago I flew to Porto Alegre.
At the client's office and after introductions,
a young man asked: Você já conhecia
Porto Alegre? (Had you been in Porto Alegre before?),
addressing me as você, the pronoun
we use for equals and inferiors. I replied that
I had lived for some time in the city, liked it
very much and demonstrated my love in a few short
sentences. The man started addressing me as tu,
the pronoun reserved for family and friends
in Rio Grande do Sul. I had been accepted.
Elsewhere in Brazil, tu is dying out. People
are either você or o senhor.
Now, Brazilian soap operas and music
are all the rage in Portugal and our
ways are affecting theirs. So you already
hear a lot of você in Lisbon.
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Judges, who should be Vossa Excelência,
are often addressed as plain o senhor by
witnesses (but not by lawyers). During
press conferences, journalists address the president
as o senhor, not Vossa Excelência.
The Pope is still His Holiness but
o senhor has to do most of the time for
the Archbishop and for the Chief Rabbi. We have
very little time for formality. We got a big country
to run.
On the rare occasions when tu is used outside
Rio Grande do Sul, it usually takes a third-person
verb: tu gosta? instead of tu gostas?
and always assumes an intimate relationship. You
don't address a stranger as tu in Brazil.
Strangers may be você, but never
tu.
Você is a very interesting word. It
always takes the verb in the third person: você
gosta? and grammarians refuse to classify
it as a pronoun. For all they know, você
/ vocês are forms of treatment
and the second-person pronoun is tu / vós.
From a historical standpoint, they are right:
você is short for vossa mercê
(your mercy), and that is why it takes the
verb in the third person. Historically,
according to grammarians, when I say você,
I am talking to your mercy, not to you.
So I should address my words to her (mercy
being of the feminine gender in Portuguese) and
use the verb in the third person.
The same happens in English: You know but
Your Excellency knows. The habit of addressing
people indirectly through their honorific titles
seems to have developed in Latin and passed on
to several other languages.
As I said, diachronically, você may
be a forma de tratamento, but it now functions
as any other pronoun.
Spanish Interlude
But, please, remember that the Spanish usted,
through analogous to você, is formal,
not familiar and tu is very
much alive in that language. So you don't
address a Spanish-speaking person as usted
just because you would call him você
in Brazil. On second thought, you might, since
they are a lot more formal than us and often use
usted when we would use plain você.
But that is another story.
Back to Portuguese, now in Portugal
This você-thing is more Brazilian
than Portuguese. Even a few years ago, the Portuguese
used você somewhat disparagingly
to address their inferiors, but never their equals.
I still remember a Portuguese merchant spitting
vocês at his employees, while he
reserved o senhor for customers and tu
for his partner. Tu is very much alive
over there too.
Now, Brazilian soap operas and music are all the
rage in Portugal and our ways are affecting theirs.
So you already hear a lot of você in
Lisbon. But they do not seem to feel very comfortable
with that.
In addition, in Portugal, they use pronouns a
lot less than in Brazil and things like would
you like some more wine? often came out as
o Danilo quer mais vinho? (Would Danilo like
some more wine) as if I were somebody else.
This is possible in Brazil, but extremely rare,
perhaps humorous, sarcastic or used to talk to
children.
At a Lisbon restaurant, a colleague was addressed
as a doutora gostaria de... (would the doctor
like to...) again as if she were somebody
else.
In Portugal, as in Rio Grande do Sul, tu is
for family and friends.
Many years ago part of my family moved from Portugal
to Brazil and I was astonished to hear them addressing
me as vossemecê, an intermediary
form between Vossa Mercê and você
used for young children at the time. I am
not sure this usage is still alive. Maybe in rural
areas. Didn't hear it during a recent visit to
Lisbon. Not that I am a child any longer either.
Back to Brazil, this time formally
Você is the most common form of address
in Brazil. We have always been less formal than
the Portuguese and are becoming more and more
informal. O senhor, the corresponding formal
address, is used less and less. When I was young,
everybody whose age exceeded mine by more than
a few years was o senhor. Today few of
the youngsters I know address me as senhor.
Young children may add a tio (uncle) as
a handle here and there, but it is usually
tio Danilo, você quer... and not
tio Danilo, o senhor quer....
Even professionals are often addressed as você.
If I used anything but Denise, você...
in talking to my dentist she would think something
was wrong, but then she is young enough to be
my daughter.
However, if you address someone as você
and the addressee replies addressing you as
o senhor, that can either show respect
or a be a pointed remark meaning that distances
should be kept.
In Brazilian mailing lists, where everybody is
você, a message to senhor X
or referring to o senhor spells trouble.
As soon as the sky is bright again, people start
vocêing everybody else.
What about vós?
Vós, the plural of tu, has died
out in Brazil. The last person I heard addressing
a group as vós was president Juscelino
Kubitschek, back in the late fifties. Now it is
either vocês or os senhores. Os
senhores is considered too stiff and we often
address a group as vocês even if
we would address individual members as o senhor.
Vós as a polite form of address to
a single person has also disappeared, even in
addressing God. When I learned to pray, back in
the fifties, it was que estais no céu
(who art in heaven). Now it is que está,
indicating that the Lord is either você
or o senhorbut certainly not
tu or vós.
Strangely enough, tu, which was considered
too rude for use when addressing the butcher,
was often used to address God. The theory behind
this is that, God being our best friend, we ought
to address Him as a member of the family. Not
very convincing, I tell you.
Of handles and articles
If you feel you should address people as o
senhor, you must add a handle to their names
too. Curiously, we can add handles to first names.
So, people who address me as senhor, also
call me "seu" Danilo. This particular
"seu" is always used between
inverted commas in written Portuguese. (Spoken
Portuguese does not use inverted commas...) The
reason is "seu" is a shortened
form of o senhor developed by slaves and
it seems the quotes are useful to explain that
we know it is wrong, but...
Even doctors may be addressed by their first names,
with handles. If I were a doctorwhich I
am notit would be Doutor Danilo, o senhor
gostaria de... Also, we can freely add articles
to names: o Danilo disse que ... (Danilo said
that...). In other countries, people may add
articles before proper nouns to show contempt
or scorn, but not here. Even my mother says o
Daniloand I am her only son. This is
quite Southern; however, North of Rio, names do
not take articles. Don't forget that the population
of Brazil is concentrated in the center and south
of the country.
The President and I are on a first-name basis
Even members of government are usually known by
their first names, a custom that creates some
strange differences between English-language texts
on Brazil and what could be their Brazilian counterparts:
President Cardoso: o Fernando Henrique; President
Quadros: o Jânio. My parents have always
referred to the Vargas Era as o tempo
do Getúlio.
As long as he is the President, the President
will be addressed as Presidente, but informally
referred to as o Fernando Henrique. If
he were not the president, he would probably have
been o Doutor Fernando. His full name
is Fernando Henrique Cardoso, and his
has always been Fernando or formally Fernando
H. Cardoso, but he had to select two components
as his political name when elected to the Senate
and thought Fernando Henrique would be
better.
Very few Brazilians are addressed by their family
names. When a Brazilian prefers his family name
it usually means that his first name is very common
and he wants to be seen apart from the herd. It
may also mean he hates his given name for some
reason we better not discuss here.
The case with writers is even more interesting.
Because we often keep our mothers' maiden names
as a middle name, most of us have double family
names (My full name is Danilo Ameixeiro Nogueira,
good for a great laugh, because it means Plumtree
- Walnuttree). Many writers use those double
family names as their pen names.
We usually know them by the first of those
names, but foreigners usually prefer the lastif
they know the guy at all. So José Maria
d'Eça de Queirós, who signed
his writings Eça de Queiroz, may
be Queirós or Queiroz to
you, but is Eça to me. Same with
Joaquim Maria Machado de Assis, (Machado de
Assis) which may be Assis abroad, but
is Machado in Brazil, and was always called
Machado by his friends.
Dealing with females
The correct handle for a woman's name is dona.
If you ever meet my wife and decide you should
address her as a senhora (which I recommend
you don't), it would be dona Vera, a
senhora quer.... Better go the você
way: Vera, você quer....
Never, never, never address a Brazilian woman
by her husband's family name. If you call her
senhora Nogueira, my wife probably wouldn't
even notice that you were referring to her.
Ruth Cardoso, the President's wife is Doutora
Ruth (she has a degree in anthropology) or
Dra. Ruth Cardoso, on formal occasions.
She probably won't mind being called just dona
Ruth. But don't call her senhora Cardoso,
please. If you want to know the name of a
married woman whose husband you know, ask someone
como se chama a esposa do doutor Antônio?(What
is the name of Dr. Antonio's wife) and you
will hear something like Ah, a dona Márcia?
And, of course, senhorita has been dead
for ages. The way we address a woman in these
parts does not depend on her marital status.
Women still add their husband's name to theirs
when they get married. A woman that makes a professional
name for herself before getting married often
continues signing her maiden name at the office
to avoid the trouble of telling everybody that
Márcia Antunes is now Márcia Antunes
da Silva. She will sign a check with her full
name, though. In any case, she will probably go
on being Márcia. Or something like Márcia
da Contabilidade, if the company happens to
employ several Márcias and this
particular one works in Accounting.
Unfortunately, American companies refuse to accept
this local custom and make a point of having their
e-mails as SilvaMA@br.something.com
a demonstration of cultural intolerance that creates
a lot of trouble locally. We most learn that Marcia
Antunes is SilvaMA, and keep an index cross-referencing
such things.
Of subjects and objects
But I'm letting myself go astray, as usual. You
is both object and subject, as you know. In
Portuguese, as in other languages, the you
in you know him is different from the
you in he knows you. Here, guys,
we have a real mess.
Because voce is a form of treatment
and not a darned simple second-person pronoun,
it should take the same object forms as he.
So it is I gave you the book yesterday
should be dei-lhe o livro ontem and
grammarians insist it is. Only it is not.
First, lhe is perceived by most of us as
only applying to the third person or to
the formal senhor. That is not what the
grammar book says, I know, but this is not a grammar
book and if you want one, by all means, buy one.
I don't give a hoot. I am telling it like it is,
what I hear all the time and what I read, for
instance, in translators' mailing lists or in
my daily paper. Not what grammarians claim I should
write if I cared.
So, again, grammarians notwithstanding, dei-lhe
o livro is usually felt as meaning I gave
him the book. Or, at most, as another
form of eu dei o livro ao senhor. Not as
eu dei o livro para você. In addition,
lhe is rarely used, because it is felt
to be too stiff. If you gave him the book, please
say eu dei o livro para ele, not eu
lhe dei o livro.
But the object form of você in colloquial
Brazilian Portuguese is te: Te dei o
livro ontem. That makes the hair of our brothers
across the Atlantic stand on end. Because te
is átono (unstressed) it cannot
be placed before the verb except under special
circumstances. They would say dei-te o livro
ontem (notice the hyphen, please).
However, Brazilian pronunciation long ago lost
the difference between stressed and unstressed
words. Portuguese pronunciation distinguishes
between te, the pronoun, and tê,
the letter "T", but the difference
is felt very faintly or not at all in Brazil,
and, in any case, the te is as stressed
as the next word, so we don't see why we should
place it elsewhere.
Where do I place this little #@$%$! of a pronoun?
The rules for placing pronomes pessoais do
caso oblíquo (personal pronouns in the
objective case) are taught in Brazil at length
and with little success.
As proof that we can place our pronouns as well
as our European brethren, our grammar books and
teachers often quote Machado (Assis, in
English), whose pronouns are usually "correctly"
placed. However, it is often said that he always
let his wife Carolina correct his originals because
she knew grammar a lot better than he did. Dona
Carolina was Portuguese.
We place our pronouns where we damn well please
and say things like Me dá o livro! using
the pronoun to start a sentence, which is taboo
in Portugal, even worse than using a preposition
to end an English sentence with.
Mesoclitically speaking...
In addition, except in very formal style, we have
abandoned mesoclise, the curious habit
of inserting the pronoun inside the verb:
Dar-te-ia (I would give to you), or its
more serious cousin double mesoclisis, in
which we insert two pronouns inside the
verb: Dar-vo-lo-ia (I would give it to you
[plural]), or its even more serious cousin
double mesoclisis with contraction: dar-to-ia
(I would give it to you [singular]) where
o (it) is merged with te to give
to.
The Portuguese still use those forms a little
bit more than us, but they too are getting tired
of them. We say Eu daria para voce. Only
if you say you are going give someone something,
please, specify what you are willing to give.
Saying that you will give without saying what
is to be given has sexual overtones, which may
be undesirable. Yes, it's that complicated.
Of Accusatives and Datives
There is another second-person object pronoun:
ti. Technically, te is accusative,
ti is dative. In practice, we use ti
with prepositions and te without them:
Perguntaram alguma coisa a ti? is equivalent
to perguntaram-te alguma coisa? with some
difference in emphasis, however. This is current
in Europe, but not in Brazil. We say Te perguntaram
alguma coisa? and Perguntaram alguma coisa
para voce? Ti is also disappearing in Brazil.
Yes, that much simplification.
The press and the pronoun
The press is very uncomfortable with those things
and they want to write right which they believe
to be the way the grammar book says, and the people
who write grammar books in turn think that right
is what Machado (Assis, in English) wrote,
and Machado thought his wife knew better. And
so the Brazilian press tries to write as Dona
Carolina would, which they cannot for several
reasons. I'll spare you the explanation why not.
But it is very funny. The Brazilian press edits
all interviews trying to make even illiterate
favela-dwellers talk as if they had studied
at the University of Coimbra. Disseram-me que,
where the guy obviously said me disseram
que, for instance. But the operative word
is trying because the journalist wouldn't
be able to place the pronouns right and would
make grievous errors in the direction of hypercorrection.
You often read que disseram-me, which is
against the rules, since que "attracts"
the pronouns to a position in front of the verb.
It goes on and on.
We have entire books on the right place to put
a pronoun, as if we had nothing better to do.
Of Pigs
I was forgetting that you in utterances
like you pig! is seu: Seu porco! (We
don't call cops pigs, however. I call police officers
senhor, because my mom told me that anyone
who's got a gun deserves to be addressed as senhor.
People with a less formal education may call
them many things, but never porco.)
So seu porco! is used for someone who picks
his nose in public or eats with dirty hands. Seu
porquinho (you little pig) ditto, if the pig
under discussion is a child, spouse, or near-spouse;
very endearing. Seu porcão (you big
pig!) is even more endearing and seu porcalhão
(you really big pig) may show real loving
care. Or not, depending on the intonation. But
that's another story.
Seu in this case does not need quotes, because
it is the possessive pronoun and adjective, not
slave-talk for senhor. Curiously, the usual
possessive pronoun for você is teu,
not seu, following the rule that você
takes the second person. This is very logical,
for você is second person, although
originally was third. Of course, you can say teu
porco. But that means your pig, not
you pig! However, a pig belonging to someone
to whom we owe some form of respect is o seu
porco, because the possessive of o senhor
is seu, not teu. But many people
believe seu should only be used for his,
and render your pig (with respect) as
o porco do senhor.
Now, perhaps, you would like to hear a bit about
how we translate be or there into
Portuguese. But not today, I am sure. Perhaps
some other time.
This article was originally published at Translation Journal (http://accurapid.com/journal).
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